Germany news: Childfree adults to pay more for elder care

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-news-childfree-adults-to-pay-more-for-elder-care/live-77292208

Comments

myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 4:08 PM
There's a bunch of criticism, but this is in my view the only general approach that makes sense (globally) and should have been done 50 years ago already.

IMO a big factor for the whole sub-replacement fertility in developed nations (and resulting demographic problems) is that the state has invalidated/replaced all the economical gain that families got from children (cheap "workers" and elder care), but the chld-related costs to families have only increased.

Society gains massively from future workers/tax payers, but economical incentives are not aligned at all; children cost their parents a lot, society reaps all the benefits, but does not compensate parents enough economically.

hobofanMay 26, 2026, 4:13 PM
You are not wrong. But the reality of this government in Germany is that they are also cutting down on the assistance that parents receive.

With both of those combined they are currently just redistributing wealth to the elderly that have created this mess.

robocatMay 26, 2026, 5:28 PM
> the elderly that have created this mess

Unbalanced... The elderly also created most of the infrastructure everyone depends upon.

When you get to be elderly, it will be your turn to be blamed.

_DeadFred_May 26, 2026, 5:49 PM
In the US at least the majority of current elderly (boomers) fought tooth and nail against infrastructure improvements, and when they did happen often funded them with debt to pass the cost off to someone else. The Greatest Generation (WW2) and Silent Generation did the heavy lifting here.
robocatMay 26, 2026, 9:42 PM
The US is an economy - what matters is the resource flows within each day or year.

I sincerely hope you've had your 2.4 kids to support yourself - that's what the boomers managed and it is hard to measure in dollars or debt. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281453

The idea of monetary debt between generations is just hand-waving (apart from the issue of trying to "color" a dollar via creative government accounting).

Note that government lending in other countries is different when borrowed in foreign currencies e.g. USD or Yuan (ask anyone living in bankrupted countries).

The boomers are dying (20% gone so far) - - in a few decades everyone else will have inherited everything, and the blame will shift to another name.

ProfessorLaytonMay 27, 2026, 12:33 AM
>I sincerely hope you've had your 2.4 kids to support yourself. that's what the boomers managed and it is hard to measure in dollars or debt.

Oh you mean the same boomers that pulled the latter up behind them via NIMBYism that caused housing prices to explode, starved education funding and made universities expensive, and pushed back on universal healthcare while also getting tax-funded healthcare themselves?

Now they're mad we don't want to have more kids to fund their elderly care and retirement? Those boomers?

myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 4:48 PM
IMO Germany is in a pretty tough spot, and lots of countries will run into similar problems because of demographics.

It is very difficult to diminish pension benefits that were promised 30 years ago (when the worker/retiree ration was 4:1 instead of like 2:1) and almost half your voters would be affected (>40% of voters are over 60).

Any "solution" is going to hurt and feel unfair to a bunch of people and it is very difficult to make "young-people-politics" when most of your voters are old (problems probably need to escalate more to achieve approval for anything that financially hurts retirees).

People sometimes like to point at wealth disparity as a real root cause for the floundering pension/elder care system, but even completely disowning the richest 10% of Germans would fund the pension system for less than a decade, so no easy solution from that direction, either.

triceratopsMay 27, 2026, 12:33 AM
> even completely disowning the richest 10% of Germans would fund the pension system for less than a decade

This is a very naive take that assumes wealth gets turned into pallets of cash and those pallets get fed into a furnace when the cash is spent. None of that is true.

Disowning the richest 10% of Germans would be economically disastrous. Levying a 1% wealth tax, payable in the form of assets rather than cash, would produce a very different outcome. The assets should go into a sovereign wealth fund run by some passive algorithm, and its returns must be used solely to reduce income taxes.

myrmidonMay 27, 2026, 1:40 AM
My point is that this is not a case of "the rich took all the money so we can no longer pay decent pensions", even stripping "the rich" of everything couldnt prop the system up for long at all.

I'm very much in favor of more progressive/capital gains taxation but thats not gonna fix this problem.

triceratopsMay 27, 2026, 3:15 AM
> stripping "the rich" of everything couldnt prop the system up for long at all

I'd encourage you to think about what this actually means. When you say "stripping the rich of everything", what do you imagine happens to the factories and labs and patents and copyrights? Do they immediately cease to provide enough food and shelter and clothing for everyone just because they changed hands?

The problem with actually doing it is that this is textbook communism. Communism suffers from low productivity and competitiveness. It leads to or requires totalitarianism. It's a dead-end. We already know this.

> [more taxation]'s not gonna fix this problem.

I didn't say "more taxation". I argued for a different type of tax system altogether. We haven't really tried more taxation. And we definitely haven't tried what I proposed.

"This problem", namely the problem of people having fewer children, has many causes. One of them is that most households need two earners just to stay afloat*. Taking care of kids after a hard day at work for both parents is hard. The current financial incentives for having children don't come close to compensating for this penalty in time/energy/lost wages.

* Obviously there are others: For instance, Netflix is way more fun than cooking dinner only to watch your kids not eat anything.

ProjectibogaMay 26, 2026, 4:55 PM
Some couples are infertile so this discriminates against them.
medvezhenokMay 26, 2026, 6:36 PM
Soviet Union had childlessness tax, but you were exempt if you could prove infertility
ghustoMay 26, 2026, 6:39 PM
Adoption.
djoldmanMay 26, 2026, 4:51 PM
> Society gains massively from future workers/tax payers

It seems to me that, all other things equal, future workers/tax payers will lead to economic increases proportional to their costs.

A reasonable forward looking plan / budget scales with the population size. Therefore there would be no need for these special one off exceptions and nudges.

All these little bandaids add up to complexity that necessitates more bandaids.

myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 5:18 PM
This only applies in a steady state.

If your populations shrinks quickly, you end up needing to run the infrastructure (and elder care!) for a whole country with too few working-age people.

This is a massive problem, and some incentive complexity to avoid it is certainly worth it.

JamesbeamMay 26, 2026, 7:28 PM
I think that someone gets an overall tax rebate when they have children is a reasonable decision for a society to make.

But the real problem here is that there are a ton of adults who would love to have kids but are medically not able to for a bunch of reasons, from autoimmune disease to genetic differences to the simple fact that young people get cancer too and infertility because of treatment or the illness is a thing too.

Is it really wise for a society to treat them as if they willingly deny the society additional benefactors and valuable younger members?

It feels wrong for me that you get treated unequally by the law because of circumstances that are not choice-based and your decision to make in the first place.

dchftcsMay 27, 2026, 2:49 AM
Lots of things that are wrong are also imposed on parents. Not to say involuntarily childless people are to be blamed for anything, or that two wrongs make a right, but society is immensely misaligned against having children, and forced charity already exists in various forms whether you like it.

But honestly, developed countries not having children itself isn't that bad a thing. I feel that our existence and the hedonistic treadmill drains too many scarce resources, and population growth should not last long. On the other hand, it seems societies still gain productivity in spite of the slow population growth. There should be plenty of slack for everyone, so that middle-class parents don't feel like they are constantly in a deathmarch, and voluntarily childless people don't need to be pressured. There's an immense misallocation of resources that is hard to solve, and you end up seeing proposals like this.

7bitMay 26, 2026, 4:46 PM
The approach is completely backwards. You incentivise having kids, not punish those who do not have kids or worse, those who can't get kids.
spwa4May 26, 2026, 5:38 PM
You forget the problem that's being solved here. It's not how to incentivize having kids. It's how to increase taxes while reducing pensions. Increasing the obligations of everyone currently working while decreasing what the state provides at the same time.

The full details are: this is an additional 2.5% non-progressive income tax, two thirds paid by employers, one third by employees.

Other "currently proposed" changes:

Active aging: the elderly need to keep working longer.

Elderly care is pushed onto families.

Elderly care is now much less a right that an individual can enforce. This changes the situation to that the state must put in efforts to care for elderly rather than giving individuals the right to elderly care. Right now an elderly person can sue the government if they fail to provide.

Other various rights are being curtailed. Such as the right to "digital inclusion". The state's obligation to provide access to care offline is dropped.

socoMay 26, 2026, 7:11 PM
And why wouldn't the elderly need to keep working longer? They did benefit from all the new medical stuff extending their active lives, so how about giving back by working a few years more? It's also their own decision to have less children, thus less workers, and also they generally don't want more immigrants, so there - it's either more work, or magic. And we don't know how to do magic.
skeledrewMay 26, 2026, 8:25 PM
Elderly means old enough for certain classes of issues to pop up that makes continuing to work less feasible. There's only so much more years that can be added before their contributions become absolutely net negative. Unless we also find general medical solutions to freeze/reverse the issues.
spwa4May 26, 2026, 7:46 PM
They voted and paid taxes based on a deal that was presented to them, in writing. Now the deal is being changed.
thefzMay 26, 2026, 7:44 PM
What about taxing the rich instead of putting yet another burden on the young.
bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 10:14 PM
again, the problem is demographic. people like you are not able to see beyond the first order effects. if you finance the social system from the rich you will fundamentally not fix the issue. you can't eat euros.
thefzMay 27, 2026, 5:38 AM
Can't even eat babies (unless you visited a certain disgraced financier's island)
GoodJokesMay 26, 2026, 8:26 PM
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lokarMay 26, 2026, 4:10 PM
Society pays a lot for children as well. Including members without children.
myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 4:25 PM
Yes, but not commensurately.

A child might cost its parents somewhere beyond $200k, the parents only get a tiny fraction of this from the state.

And the public paying for education is not a subsidy for parents in my view, but an investment into the children, i.e. future taxpayers (=> the parents don't really gain from that).

lokarMay 26, 2026, 5:37 PM
I think you are arguing inconsistently here. You can't claim at the same time that we should recognize all of the benefits of children (in their adulthood) and at the same time not recognize the cost to society to educate them. It's a subsidy, a wise subsidy and money well spent, but it's still a cost.
myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 7:46 PM
My point is: Society itself recoups the investment into education very easily (from competent taxpaying workers some years later), but the main cost of raising children is paid by parents, and they don't get back anything (economically).

All the benefits that used to be there (adolescents helping with farm/work, children taking care of aging parents) became more and more irrelevant, but general costs of raising children (to parents) have not decreased at all (and "reputational" cost of just skipping parenthood is at rock bottom, too, so that is no longer pushing prospective parents towards economically irrational decisions, either).

thefzMay 26, 2026, 7:51 PM
> A child might cost its parents somewhere beyond $200k, the parents only get a tiny fraction of this from the state.

Yet another reason for others not to chip in your bad ROI decisions then

utilize1808May 26, 2026, 4:14 PM
The fact that birth rate is so low in countries with good social security safe net suggests that the society isn't paying enough.
hn_throwaway_99May 26, 2026, 4:18 PM
Not necessarily. It's possible that no amount of money would solve this problem. Birth control inherently broke the previously built evolutionary mechanism that insured that the extremely strong built in desire for sex would result in kids. That's no longer the case, and a lot of people would decide to not have kids even if money were no object.

As you point out, Finland famously has incredible family support, and also a birth rate under 1.3.

condisMay 26, 2026, 5:06 PM
> Birth control inherently broke the previously built evolutionary mechanism that insured that the extremely strong built in desire for sex would result in kids.

But as has been pointed out poor people still have a ton of kids (relatively)

Now I went to a shitty public high school in the south, but even I remember learning about all kinda of anti-conceptive methods including birth control, condoms, spermicide, IUDs, etc.

Did poor people just not pay attention? Why is it only that wealthier demographics seem to know about birth control?

lokarMay 26, 2026, 5:38 PM
One possibility is that wealthy people with few (often just 1) child, a stable home life, fewer financial pressures, etc spend a lot more time on the child. And this keeps them out of trouble more often.

Also, a lot of the education around avoiding pregnancy is about the financial future of the child (eg getting present in high school will ruin your life). For that to have an impact, the child has to think they have some kind of future.

_DeadFred_May 26, 2026, 5:53 PM
'having a child removes your future opportunity so don't have a child until you are ready' resonates more with people with future opportunity.
condisMay 26, 2026, 6:08 PM
In that case the problem will solve itself as the middle class is destroyed.
cindyllmMay 26, 2026, 5:07 PM
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theragraMay 26, 2026, 4:37 PM
Afaik according to research, the only thing that helps is

1. Lump sum, pretty big (like year worth of salary or close) payment on birth

2. Works for first child only.

That's it. So, it kinda works, but very limited. Increasing sum did not increase birthrates, if I remember correctly.

myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 5:15 PM
This sounds extremely plausible to me, but I would be very careful about conclusions from such studies, because I believe the general expectations of society as a whole regarding child-raising matter a lot and you can't easily quantify that.

Anecdotally, when my grandmother did not birth a child for two consecutive years in her thirties the village priest came to investigate (!!). Expectations have shifted massively since, and the single/dink lifestyle is way more "acceptable" now.

lokarMay 26, 2026, 5:39 PM
And often the payment merely changes the timing of the child
dude250711May 26, 2026, 4:13 PM
E.g. they have "free" higher education in Germany isn't it? Maybe not even just for domestic students?
lokarMay 26, 2026, 4:16 PM
I know a big factor in Korea is social relationships between the genders (expectations about housework, childcare, etc). The current arrangements are not attractive to many women.

How is it in Germany? I would guess better

em-beeMay 26, 2026, 5:55 PM
not much. the reality is that women still take a hit on their potential careers and income, and are expected to do most of the childcare work. another problem that i see not only in germany is that men are not trusted with children or being capable of doing housework.

also on the attractiveness for women, germany being less traditional means that more women are willing to break traditions, so even if the situation there is better for them, women are still less interested, which means the effect in the end is the same.

lokarMay 26, 2026, 6:03 PM
A mismatch between expectations (of women) and the current status (of men, and society).
pibakerMay 26, 2026, 5:49 PM
I am increasingly of the opinion that you can either be eligible to vote, or collect pension, but not both at the same time.

By the time you start collecting pension, you have effectively ousted yourself from economic production. And unlike a 20yo still in college and not contributing to the economy yet, you don't have 50 more years of your life to worry about. This effectively means it is safe for you to support any short term extractive policies without ever worrying about the longer term consequences.

And demonstrably, this is how pensioners vote — I get to keep my pension, you get to pay more tax. And no we won't let you build any more housing for your beautiful children, we want this town to stay the way it was in 1970. Please come wipe my ass for $15 an hour. And no, don't let people who are actually willing to work that job for that pay immigrate into the country. It's a bunch of feel good policies with insolvable contradictions. Buy because they will not live long enough to feel the backlash, they vote on.

qurrenMay 26, 2026, 7:02 PM
> By the time you start collecting pension, you have effectively ousted yourself

I disagree. The vast majority of jobs are difficult to work at old age and with medical conditions that typically come with old age. As long as we value keeping people alive for their natural lifespan (I hope we do), then our base assumption needs to be that we every time we pay someone we need to pay them $1 for now and $1 for their retirement. Approximately 1:1 because the actually-productive working age is ~25-65 and the retirement age is ~65-105.

Investment returns are never guaranteed, and shouldn't be factored into that.

We're hiring people here, not robots.

socoMay 26, 2026, 7:18 PM
And before that difficulty to perform the work, it's also that willing elderly won't even be considered for a job. I mean even if the job is pure intellectual job, you hear reasons like "oh 10 years only until retirement they won't invest in our culture" - while at the same time the company attrition is 20%. Pure prejudice. Also not allowing for part time jobs, another prejudice "oh they aren't fully focused on us" and mandatory office presence "oh they will do nothing if I don't watch them". We have a doomed system if we can't work on those solutions which would definitely solve, or at least push back a serious while, the current demographic imbalance. But prejudices are probably more difficult to address than passing a law... try to force any of the above and you'll immediately have the right-wing all over you for "removing muh freedoms" and such.
MarkoffMay 27, 2026, 6:40 AM
I am basically fan of two approaches:

1. let vote only people who contribute (pay some minimum income tax) at the time of elections - no unemployed, no students, no retired people - regardless the age, so if you pay your taxes at 14 you are eligible to vote at 14, if you pay your taxes at 88 you have right to decide what will be done with your money at 88, actually I would go even so far that EVERYONE regardless of citizenship should be allowed to vote if they are paying taxes, either they are good paying taxes, so they should be good also for voting

2. other approach would not be tied to income tax, let vote absolutely everyone regardless of age, so even children get vote, so family of 4 with 2 kids will get 4 votes, so they can vote for future of their children and not that retired people are deciding (usually selfishly) future of the kids

I am aware of reality that 1st option would cause huge uproar and second option is more realistic with some countries moving that way lowering voting age to 16 for now.

At the same time I would be glad if we would get rid off Pay-as-you-go pension plan and replace it with own savings account (IRA), but it seems no country in the world had balls to switch, even Chile had to backpedal a bit, but they got the furthest. It's the only solution for demographic changes.

joquarkyMay 26, 2026, 7:10 PM
In the US at least, it is also facilitated by a legislature that is older than color TV.
EkarosMay 26, 2026, 6:52 PM
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outside2344May 26, 2026, 4:15 PM
So the plan is to make the cost of living even more expensive for people without kids?

Do they understand the problem in the first place? Many people can't afford to have kids.

necroMay 26, 2026, 4:20 PM
I think the thinking is that if you had kids you created future cows for the tax plantation so you contributed more to the country.
timedudeMay 26, 2026, 4:35 PM
Yep, gotta keep breeding more little tax slaves to keep the plantation operational.
SkiFire13May 26, 2026, 4:35 PM
But I'm paying taxes for my pension, and my kids will pay taxes for theirs.

I know that the economics don't actually work like this, but this is the social contract.

myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 4:56 PM
You need to pay taxes and have kids for the numbers to work out.

If your pension benefits are calculated based on a 4 workers/retiree ratio, but then your whole generation has like 1 kid per family then the system will obviously break down...

SkiFire13May 27, 2026, 6:30 AM
As I said, this is how the economics of pensions work.

But the social contract does not care about that.

triceratopsMay 27, 2026, 12:16 AM
But why? That would imply a worker 30 years ago produces only as much as a worker today. Which is obviously untrue.
myrmidonMay 27, 2026, 1:35 AM
No, it would only imply that the worker/retiree income ratio (and tax/pension burden) are somewhat constant which is arguably the case; german pensions specifically rise with wages and get adjusted for inflation.

Productivity gains on the other hand get easily eaten up by increased consumption/expectations, or are overstated to begin with: producing 5 times more TVs/ipads does not make the plumber cheaper (nor a house), and unaffected professions actually suffer (=> baumol effect).

triceratopsMay 27, 2026, 3:16 AM
> german pensions specifically rise with wages

Is that because higher earners make higher contributions to the pension plan?

joquarkyMay 26, 2026, 7:17 PM
Its like growing a crop.

Except the farmer demands you grow while stomping all over you, and then reserves the fertilizer for the dying crops.

ahtihnMay 26, 2026, 4:21 PM
> Many people can't afford to have kids

Wrong. Poor people have 0 problems having kids.

People can afford kids, they don't want to compromise on lifestyle.

jnovekMay 26, 2026, 4:34 PM
You’re making a value statement in a discussion about factual information. Regardless of whether you think avoiding children for economic reasons is good or bad, it’s the leading reason cited by people who choose to delay having children. Regardless of whether it’s perception or real, that is the problem the needs to be solved if you want people to have kids.
ghustoMay 26, 2026, 6:47 PM
Does it matter that "it's the leading reason cited" if it's further questioning shows it not to be true?

I've heard it many many times from many different people, and not once has it been the actual reason.

bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 4:37 PM
doesnt mean the solution is bombarding them with free money from the state. in a democracy there is probably no sensible or passable solution regardless.
flextherulerMay 26, 2026, 4:29 PM
Then why are birth rates falling across all income levels in all countries? Please take the time to research your position.

"This perception, however, is false. In most human societies, poverty does not predict higher fertility, and well-to-do families often have the highest fertility. When families in America have more money, they tend to have more children. The stereotype of fertility being skewed towards low-income women is a product of basically two data analysis errors: 1) failure to control for important underlying cultural stratification, and 2) failure to adequately deal with the relationship between age, income, and fertility."

https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-money-more-babies-whats-the-...

azan_May 26, 2026, 4:34 PM
> Then why are birth rates falling across all income levels in all countries? Please take the time to research your position.

Well yeah, if they are falling across all income levels then not being able to afford children can’t be the reason.

bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 4:25 PM
almost always the case especially in germany where you are already incentivised with super low income taxes, free kindergarten and a shit load of other payments from the goverment. its basically impossible to be poor enough not to afford children unless you are doing it intentionally.
jespinelMay 26, 2026, 5:13 PM
Super low income taxes?

The general income tax brackets break down in Germany is as follows:

- Up to €12,348: 0% (Tax-free allowance)

- €12,349 – €69,878: 14% to 42% (Progressive increase)

- €69,879 – €277,825: 42% (Proportional rate)

- Over €277,826: 45% (Reichensteuer or "rich tax")

Source: https://www.expatrio.com/about-germany/german-tax-system

IMO: that doesn't look "super low".

A better tax system is the one used by Estonia: a flat tax rate of 22%

Source: https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/estonia/individual/taxes-on-per...

bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 10:09 PM
its low in practice for a family with a single earner is what i meant. ehegattenpsplitting. but yes by default its obviously very high but thats kind of the norm for western countries.
bushwartMay 26, 2026, 4:28 PM
I wasn't aware that Germany had super low income taxes. It is certainly possible to game the welfare system and many people do, but if you want a decent standard of living then you need to be employed.
bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 4:33 PM
if you marry you basically half your income tax burden if your partner is not employed. there are also child support payments from the government of several hundred € per month that you get as well as free kindergarten, schooling and higher ed. if you are poor you get money from the state until you hit a minimum income threshhold which together with all the other payments is more than enough to have 2 children.
ToucanLoucanMay 26, 2026, 4:27 PM
> Poor people have 0 problems having kids.

A simply WILD statement given the rates of children raised in poverty with all the trauma and issues that gives, who then oftentimes grow up to be their parents doing the exact same thing.

> People can afford kids, they don't want to compromise on lifestyle.

Previous generations didn't have to, ours does. So if people don't want to make that compromise, they won't.

Maybe if we made it systemically a bit less awful to be parents more people would do it.

em-beeMay 26, 2026, 6:02 PM
we are talking about germany here. no child in germany needs to grow up in poverty even if both parents are unemployed and are living on social welfare.
ToucanLoucanMay 26, 2026, 8:30 PM
Poverty exists everywhere and Germany is no exception. Looking into it, the average welfare recipient is going to get ballpark 80% of what someone earning minimum wage does. Granted their lives are more stable, at least from an outside view given that the government programs directly cover rent and utilities. That said those numbers only really work for people in practice by way of budget conscious spending, i.e. grocery store brand foods and really no luxuries to speak of. By any definition, that's still poverty and is still subject to the stressors that implies. Making it so people don't end up homeless is certainly a good thing, and I'll definitely give them props for it, but like, if you were a poor kid growing up, you still knew that. Your clothes were never new for the school year, you don't get nearly as many fun foods or treats, your toys aren't as nice, all the rest. All the little psychological dings that add up to adults with issues around money management and delayed gratification. And that's assuming the parent is devoted and caring, if that's not the case, you can have ALL KINDS OF BAD in this system too.

Like, again, still beats the shit out of America's system, but it's far from perfect too.

em-beeMay 26, 2026, 9:36 PM
if you were a poor kid growing up, you still knew that

i have been there, and i disagree. it's of course about attitude. and yes, sure we didn't get expensive clothes, but that wasn't an issue not in the school i went to. things might have changed, but i am sorry, it's not the problem of a welfare system to account for materialism. i was a boy scout and i got all my clothes from army surplus stores because that's what we were into. not the army style, but the sturdy hiking stuff. i was able to save up for an expensive leather school bag, not the cheap stuff everyone else in school had. i could do that because we were thrifty and didn't waste money on other unneeded luxuries. fun foods, treats? why? i am a lot healthier now because we didn't get that, and, most importantly, there was never any desire for that either. so no stress at all. as a child i never once felt that we didn't have enough money. i was proud of the way we lived.

i raise my kids the same way now. money is not the issue here. our toys were almost exclusively lego. lego is expensive, but only if it is new and if you insist on expensive presents every year. it also lasts a lifetime. you don't need to spend a lot every year to have enough to play with. and nowadays there are alternative brands that are a lot cheaper and just as good. oh, we also had comic books. lots of them. we bought and traded them on flea markets. why would they have to be new, when you could get them used at a fraction of the cost?

that's assuming the parent is devoted and caring

in your scenario the parents already failed. again, it is not the job of the welfare system to account for bad spending habits. but i get it. that argument is not new. i heard it already when i was young. and i just didn't get it. i was able to afford everything that i wanted, and i never felt i was missing anything just because our money was limited. i didn't feel that the money was limited. i didn't know that i was poor. my classmates in school didn't know that i was poor. i didn't notice that some other kids in my class were rich either. even those who actually were. at worst i saw some kids spending money on things that i would never waste my money on, but i didn't envy them. i was able to participate in every scout camp and trip that our group was doing. i was a member of a sailing club and made my sailing license. i was able to travel to various countries in europe and even to america. by the time i finished school i had done more traveling than any of my peers.

sure, i had financial support for that airplane flight, but that's the point. these things are available to everyone, regardless of income. anyone who doesn't take advantage of what is offered is either blind, ignorant or stupid.

to summarize: money is not the issue. what matters is a society where people care for each other and make efforts to ensure that everyone is included, regardless of their income. the problem is, that people don't see that. they argue that the money is not enough, when in reality the problem is lack of education (how to spend your money wisely), the wrong values, false pride that prevents people from accepting help, envy, selfishness, i don't know...

athrowaway3zMay 26, 2026, 4:26 PM
In a complex situation this is perhaps the most idiotic reductive thing you could think. But if you must insist on being reductive than i'd go with:

People could feed kids, but they can't afford to give their child a lifestyle similar to their own childhood.

eeccMay 26, 2026, 4:25 PM
Bullshit. Ignorant people (which correlates to poor) don’t think about the long term responsibilities of having children and just fuck unprotected on a Friday night. Oops
bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 4:28 PM
children will massively compromise your lifestyle, not just financially but they require a lot of "labor" from you. this is probably the most important piece of the social contract and if you are breaking it you should be penalized.
em-beeMay 26, 2026, 11:22 PM
children will massively compromise your lifestyle

why though? if you feel that way then in my opinion there is something wrong on your expectation of your lifestyle. or rather, on what our society projects what our lifestyle should be like.

but in my opinion we are also doing it wrong. we delay having children for to long, and we spend our 20s either working to hard or enjoying our freedom, and then we have children in our 30s and 40s and then in our 50s we are to old to enjoy the rest of our life. if we had children in the early 20s then they would be grown up in our 40s and we would be able to enjoy our freedom then. get the hard stuff, including raising children out of the way first.

of course, in order to do that, we need a society that values and supports that. and that's what we messed up in the west. in china it is much more normal to have children early, and people are more supportive and tolerant.

bigballsbjornMay 27, 2026, 12:01 AM
its true tho, basically all the time after working your 9-5 you have to invest into your children. i personally still want to have children in my mid 20s. i don't really care about the downside due to my ideological conviction. but even if you are a rational actor and respect the social contract you must bear the burden.
em-beeMay 27, 2026, 1:43 AM
yes, but this should not be seen as a compromise of your lifestyle. especially if, as you say, you actually want children. you are doing yourself a disservice. looking at children as a burden will only grow resentment.

sure, having children means that my freedom to do something else is limited. but i don't see that as a burden. it's a choice. and i don't regret that choice one bit. i wanted this experience, even if it went differently than expected. in that sense, expecting that you won't have time for something else is good. but make it a positive choice, not something that you only begrudgingly accept because you feel you have to. if your children feel that you felt forced to have children they will resent you for it. it diminishes your love for them, at least in their eyes.

children can be a challenge, they can demand sacrifice, but every minute i spend with them also enriches my life, and when they are grown up and have children on their own i will look at them as a challenge that i have mastered, not a burden that i took on to fulfill a social contract.

bigballsbjornMay 27, 2026, 4:08 AM
i dont really have resentment toward having children. my only resentment is toward having to pay into a social system where the majority of recipients don't understand why having no children is breaking the social contract.
zrn900May 26, 2026, 10:35 PM
> but they require a lot of "labor" from you

Unpaid work. If that work were paid enough through tax incentives and state aid, people would have been having children. But it's not. If they have children, they will be working intensely at their day job in an economic environment that expects ever-increasing productivity from everyone, and then doing more work when they get home. Japan did that. People started collapsing where they worked or stopped having children. Now they are trying to reduce workload, increase financial security and increase wages.

Germany set itself on the road to depopulation.

bigballsbjornMay 27, 2026, 12:03 AM
why would it be paid? you get the value back through the social contract. monetary incentives for children are empirically proven to be very ineffective. so the ship will go down regardless. why not to punish the culprits out of spite?
triceratopsMay 27, 2026, 12:18 AM
> monetary incentives for children are empirically proven to be very ineffective

Money is like violence. If it didn't work you didn't use enough.

> why not to punish the culprits out of spite?

Is there a difference between penalizing the (by choice) childless and lavishing money on those who have children? Seems about the same to me.

bigballsbjornMay 27, 2026, 4:05 AM
doesnt make sense unless money has no meaning anymore.
thefzMay 26, 2026, 8:19 PM
So you want others to be miserable like you, to feel better?
bigballsbjornMay 26, 2026, 10:12 PM
if you break the social contract you should not be able to participate in the social system, in fact the social system is entirely dependant on the social contract.
thefzMay 27, 2026, 5:37 AM
So basically all should do as you say, because you say so.
jnovekMay 26, 2026, 4:27 PM
Now sure how things are in Europe where there is a bigger social safety net, but in the US, 36% of adults under 50 describe putting off having kids due to financial reasons.

https://www.marketplace.org/story/2024/07/29/fewer-adults-ha...

azan_May 26, 2026, 4:33 PM
Asking people why they don’t have children is worthless. We should look at revealed preferences, not stated.
abc123abc123May 26, 2026, 4:27 PM
The machine needs more tax payers to keep politicians flying around the world in private jets. Produce tax slaves people, produce them now!
myrmidonMay 26, 2026, 5:01 PM
This is reductive, and incorrect. You simply need working-age people to run stuff, full stop. Approaching a 1:1 ratio of workers/retirees is simply unsustainable (yet), for very obvious reasons.

While wealth disparity is also a problem, solving it would NOT solve this one: In Germany, completely disowning (!) the richest 10% (!!) would not even pay for a decade of pensions.

triceratopsMay 27, 2026, 12:28 AM
> Approaching a 1:1 ratio of workers/retirees is simply unsustainable (yet), for very obvious reasons

Society would be very dull with that many old people. But other than that the reasons aren't obvious to me. Let's say the worker ratio was 4:1 80 years ago, which was sustainable. If 1:1 is unsustainable, that means each worker today doesn't produce 4x as much as a worker 80 years ago.

But that's not true! In fact in the US, labor productivity is 6 times what it was 80 years ago. [1] A worker today is equal to 6 from 1947, in terms of the value they create. So ask yourself: why isn't the math working out?

1. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OPHPBS

myrmidonMay 27, 2026, 1:28 AM
Rising productivity is a weak argument imo for several reasons:

Pensions have to not rise with wages for this to be useful. Which simply isnt happening in practice (yet?)

Also no meaningful increase in housebuilding, nursing, plumbing, childcare productivity; even worse, rise in general productivity increases costs (Baumol effect).

I'm very confident that we can make the math work out one way or another, but this might involve sacrifices that people dont even want to contemplate (yet!).

matchbok3May 26, 2026, 4:26 PM
It's the cost, but also the higher expectations of living nowadays. Social media, phones, computers, trips, etc.

The actual monetary cost of a child is high, for sure. But many people put that number higher due to lifestyle choices, not need. Social media certainly doesn't help.

turtlesdown11May 26, 2026, 4:52 PM
right, its the phones and computers driving the high cost of raising a human being for 18 years + /s
matchbok3May 26, 2026, 5:09 PM
It... literally is? How much money did families spend on computers and phones in 1980?

The snarky nonsense is not helpful, or appropriate, for this forum. Do better.

pibakerMay 26, 2026, 5:29 PM
The median family did not have a computer in the 1980s. I can't find good data but the ones a quick google search returned suggests by 1990 computer ownership was around 20%.

Computers also became ridiculously cheap in real dollars over the years, in the meanwhile education, healthcare, housing all shot up faster than overall inflation.

turtlesdown11May 26, 2026, 7:07 PM
> It... literally is?

It.... literally isn't? the cost of computers are lower today (in today's dollars) than they were in the 1980s and 1990s?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2021/09/20/cost-of-a-computer...

7bitMay 26, 2026, 4:25 PM
They don't. Chancellor Merz has an approval rating of 13 %. The German population almost unanimously thinks that he is doing a terrible job (https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2026-05/umfrage-bund...)

They have no vision for the future and no idea how to bring Germany forward other that taxing the poor.

laserdanceponyMay 26, 2026, 10:29 PM
And bring in more poor people. That will fix everything.
7bitMay 27, 2026, 6:07 AM
All foreigners are poor, huh? You racist
eeccMay 26, 2026, 4:24 PM
Sound like “the beatings will continue until morale improves”
suddenlybananasMay 26, 2026, 4:19 PM
The point is to incentivize people to have kids.
kiviuqMay 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
The Bundeswehr needs human supplies
AncalagonMay 26, 2026, 4:27 PM
You don't say?
7bitMay 26, 2026, 4:44 PM
You do that by establishing support networks for parents, not by punishing those who don't have or cannot have kids
nekznMay 26, 2026, 4:22 PM
They could make not having kids more expensive than having them and I still wouldn’t have them.

Most people I know with kids can’t afford them and still have them. And most people I know with money don’t have them. In a way it seems wealth is inversely correlated to having kids. It’s not about money, it’s about having interesting stuff to do with your life, and having the education to know what a terrible economic decision it is to have kids.

matchbok3May 26, 2026, 4:28 PM
What does "afford" mean in these cases? Do the kids have clothes? Food? Vacation?
nekznMay 26, 2026, 4:31 PM
That’s as if, in a conversation about the necessity of owning a car to buy groceries, you asked whether being able to afford a car means owning a Toyota or a Maserati.
lostmsuMay 26, 2026, 4:31 PM
> it’s about having interesting stuff to do with your life

This is the conclusion I came to as well. I do have kids.

So I wholly agree with the sibling comment "compromise on lifestyle"

matchbok3May 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
This is a challenging topic to discuss because (rightly) it's very personal. Sadly the fact of the matter is this: we need more children and young people to keep society functioning (and continually improve our quality of life). There is no other known way. So unfortunately the "free rider" problem needs to be addressed somehow. Of course, the "cruel" part is how it affects those who either can't have children, are gay, etc. I'm not sure how to work through that.
qurrenMay 26, 2026, 4:29 PM
If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't.

And yes, kids cost that much.

I'm a senior level software engineer in the bay area. I don't have kids. I don't think I can afford them. I'm tired of people telling me I can afford them. The world works differently today. In the 1980's, if you had a stable job that let you leave at 5pm, you could more or less handle kids.

Today, leaving at 5pm means risking PIP and not having an income; your company may lay off people randomly without notice; your rents could go up 10-20% unexpectedly; groceries could double in price over a couple years; you basically need to be working round the clock to not get PIPed and even sustain an income. And if you work around the clock you also need cash to hire nannies because you don't have the time to raise them yourself. As such I wouldn't even think about kids in this world without having saved up the full sum of my expenses AND their expenses for their ENTIRE life until 21 years old in CASH before even having the kid. We just don't have the job security today.

ghustoMay 26, 2026, 6:51 PM
> Today, leaving at 5pm means risking PIP and not having an income;

This is Germany, not the USA. Shit doesn't work like that here.

nowandlaterMay 27, 2026, 3:04 AM
It also doesn't work like this in all job domains in the US. These hyper-competitive FANGlike employers are meat grinders. You can live well enough on a modest wage a few hundred miles away in the Central Valley working for a public institution with a pension. It still exists even it's less so than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
guruideMay 26, 2026, 4:47 PM
I have 4 kids and can say that they absolutely do not have to cost that much. Child care is legitimately costly until they reach school age (age 5), but if you use public schools, cook modest meals at home, recognize that kids will survive and even thrive without costly extra-curricular activities, and avoid cities with outrageous costs of living like San Francisco or New York City, then having children is quite affordable. I live in the Midwestern United States. I know many families who live very comfortably on less than $100k per year.

That isn’t to say you should have kids. That’s a really personal choice. And it can come with huge amounts of extra anxiety around job security, for sure. But there are tons of options for arranging life and work to make it happen if one really wants to.

qurrenMay 26, 2026, 5:54 PM
> I have 4 kids and can say that they absolutely do not have to cost that much.

Look, my electricity bill doubled. Will the landlord pay for efficiency upgrades? Nope. Will the landlord still increase rent? Hell yes. My water bill doubled. Extrapolate those numbers.

Taco Bell used to cost $5 for a meal, and now costs $14.

My $5 sandwich now costs $15.

50%+ of my income is lost to taxes of sorts. Before you lecture me on tax, I know my taxes better than you know me. Sales taxes, self-employment taxes, tariffs are all taxes.

I get hit with $5-7K of medical bills a year. With insurance. I have a rare idiopathic heart condition, so that's my cost (systematic tax) to stay alive, and probably would be the cost for a potential genetically-infected kid to stay alive as well. I also pay $3K/year in orthodontics last and this year, and another $2-3K in preventative care out of pocket. After my orthodontics is over, I'm sure some other $4K/year shit will come up. I'm stashing up cash for all of this.

"Live in the Midwestern United States" and "avoid San Francisco", you say. But there are no jobs there. None that I could get. Everything I could get wanted me to be 3 days/week on site in silicon valley. Jobs that I found in even LA or Boston were literally half the salary or less. Jobs elsewhere were less than 1/3 the salary. Considering more than half my salary goes to taxes, tariffs, and more taxes of sorts, my partner and I really need that cash.

I don't have time to cook every meal at home. I don't have time to see kids. I'd get PIP from my job if I did that. Today's jobs don't let you work 40 hours a week; you need to work closer to 80. At my last job I worked 70 hours a week and still got PIPed. My coworkers took my ideas, finished them on weekends, worked 100 hour weeks, presented to leadership on Monday without my name. I didn't meet the "bar". My work is making millions for a big corp as I write this. Just not in my name.

Public schools are expensive. Because you pay for it in housing costs. Wherever housing is cheap, public schools are shitty. I live where housing is cheap, relatively speaking, for the bay. But I don't have kids, so it works out.

My financial planning model works like this.

For every $1 I need to support myself and my partner, I need to earn about $8. $4 goes to <strike>taxes</strike> government laundering, $4 left. For the $4 left, $2 goes to retirement (base assumption is the economy is now irreparably broken and S&P500 isn't necessarily going to grow in the next 40 years like it did the past 40), $1 goes to my catastrophe fund (in case of very realistic war or AI unemployment), $1 goes towards spending now.

My partner and I barely meet that 8x bar. That is my bar to feel safe. I couldn't meet it with kids. Without kids, we have a sane and happy life. Everything is covered, from the taxes to the whopping medical bills to housing. End of story.

saalweachterMay 26, 2026, 4:30 PM
> If you want to incentivize people to have kids, hand out $500K-1M to anyone who wants to have kids. Don't penalize those who don't.

Where does the money come from?

hephaes7usMay 26, 2026, 4:36 PM
Same place it always does, just print it. Of course, that still effectively penalizes those who don't want children, but the penalty is less legible to the public so there are fewer objections.
pibakerMay 26, 2026, 5:32 PM
[dead]
qurrenMay 26, 2026, 4:33 PM
I really don't fucking know. That's not my problem. Either increase my salary by $500K for a couple years, or stop taxing me to death (state taxes, federal taxes, sales taxes, indirectly paying property taxes via rent, taxes disguised as car registrations, tariffs, so many goddamn taxes I don't have any money left to save), stop starting wars elsewhere, stop squandering money, anything.

It's not my problem, really. I'm very happy childless. Unless that money materializes, I can't afford kids.

saalweachterMay 26, 2026, 8:24 PM
It's just that in the US, there are 3.6 million babies born each year; even taking the low-end of a $500k one-time payment to one parent, you're already talking a $1.8 trillion / year program, slightly larger than Social Security's $1.6 trillion program.

Social Security is funded by a 12.4% income tax, with half nominally paid by the employee and half nominally paid by the employer.

You'd need a similar tax to fund such a benefit, which would amount to a 15% income tax, assuming the program isn't too successful in raising birth rates.

VirusNewbieMay 26, 2026, 5:50 PM
There are plenty of people in the bay area who have kids who likely make less than you do.
moomoo11May 26, 2026, 4:38 PM
seems like cope.

you’re probably making like 500k TC

if you’re 30 and worked in tech you should have around 1m nw

if your partner makes 200-400k you can afford to have children

i see arab/muslims and mexicans here with like 3-4 kids. i live in sf, so somehow they’re able to do it without a high paying tech job.

x3roMay 26, 2026, 4:28 PM
If you want people to have children make it an attractive life choice, or even a viable option. A centrally located apartment in a desirable city with the space to house a family of 3-4 is out of reach for a very large part of the population, financially. That’s _before_ you even consider all of the other costs of having children. Meanwhile our chancellor talks of 70h+ work weeks, while spending hundreds of billions on special military budgets, and also cutting health care funding..
guruideMay 26, 2026, 5:00 PM
I’m not sure why a central location or a desirable city would be required? If that is more important than having children to someone, by all means, they should make those choices. But if they really want children, like I dreamed of since I was a teenager, then accepting a less costly living arrangement and lifestyle seems like a trivial sacrifice. I sometimes would rather live in a more expensive area, but I definitely would not trade any of my 4 children in order to do that.
em-beeMay 26, 2026, 6:11 PM
you are willing to make that tradeoff, but not everyone is. and as the goal is to get more people to have children, we need to make it more attractive.

you want parents to be able to live in the same desirable places as childless couples. and especially as the kids get older, they want to live in the places where other young people live, and where all the action is. that tends to be in the city centers.

politelemonMay 26, 2026, 4:52 PM
A good way to work through that is by not framing people as free riders in the first place.
ghustoMay 26, 2026, 6:49 PM
> Of course, the "cruel" part is how it affects those who either can't have children, are gay, etc.

Adoption. At least that was the choice one of the gay couples I know made.

surgical_fireMay 26, 2026, 4:33 PM
I am sure countries will do everything to incentivise the population to have more children.

Except, of course, reduce income inequality, address housing shortages, that sort of thing.

thefzMay 26, 2026, 7:55 PM
> So unfortunately the "free rider" problem needs to be addressed somehow.

Free rider? I am already paying close to 30% of my income for the state to distribute to ALL.

matchbok3May 26, 2026, 9:11 PM
That is why I put it in quotes.

At the end of the day, taxes don't being to compare to the lifetime (and compounding effect) of children. And yes, you have a good point. You pay taxes (a lot) and so it makes these conversations difficult.

dude250711May 26, 2026, 4:25 PM
Do you mean something like this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/apr/05/uproar-germany...

But aimed at childless women? To balance things out a bit?

AncalagonMay 26, 2026, 4:12 PM
Wow, once again older generations pulling up the ladder on advantages they had that no longer exist for younger generations.
Analemma_May 26, 2026, 4:15 PM
The final fuck you from the Boomers will be that they will be dying en masse just as the consequences of their behavior really start to bite and it is no longer possible for anyone else to have what they did.
karussellMay 26, 2026, 9:24 PM
Two important things for this discussion:

1. the difference for the (public) elder care (Pflegeversicherung) is already there: a fee of 2.4% vs. 1.8% with kids (or much less with more kids). And it was now proposed to slightly increase the fee to 2.5%, i.e. +0.1%. But as it was recently increased several times (nearly every year) this is a strange suggestion and looks helpless.

2. this small increase (<1 billion €) does not fix the existing financial gap of approx 4 billions. The gap will increase a lot for the next years.

mikef25May 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
As a resident of Germany: I have two kids and would do anything for them, but from a financial point of view, you're way better off without kids in Germany, even if you have to pay these "extra fees". The public pension has already been higher for years for anybody without children.
jillesvangurpMay 26, 2026, 4:44 PM
For reference, health insurance + care insurance is super expensive in Germany already (compared to most European countries) and both insurances are mandatory and generally combined. But the system is also super inefficient so a lot of the money is simply wasted on bureaucratic nonsense, making insurers rich, pointless referrals between "specialists" to make them rich, etc. The system actively stimulates waste, if you are privately insured, you get preferential treatment. Which means that if you aren't you get treated like dirt. I've been both private and public insured. I've experienced both.

My own country the Netherlands got rid of the private/public distinction. Everybody is insured via a private insurer. They can't reject patients and patients are allowed to switch insurer up to once a year. Insurers also work with health care providers to make sure money is spent more efficiently. Meaning hospitals can't just offload their inefficiencies onto insurers. And insurers can't just offload that onto patients. Because the patients switch to the insurers with the best relation ships with healthcare providers and the best deal. They all have to provide the same base coverage but you can insure for stuff on top of that.

The Dutch system also has its flaws and deficiencies. But my parents together pay much less than me by myself in Germany. And as far as I can see from their recent experiences, they are well looked after. It seems the Dutch system has a lot less bureaucratic nonsense, better information sharing, more modern hospitals, etc. It also has underpaid nurses, issues with some types of medication not getting covered, and a few other issues. But compared to the expensive German mess; much better.

Germany is mainly legislating to kick the can down the road instead of addressing any of it's structural economic issues: a government bureaucracy that stifles innovation rather than promoting it, a pension system that is essentially a underfunded slow moving train wreck at this point, broken physical and energy infrastructure that will take decades to fix, and a hopelessly inefficient health care system.

bwestergardMay 26, 2026, 4:14 PM
"The bill would have contributions from childfree adults increase by 0.7% over a period of years, meaning they would pay 2.5% of their income each month. Their employer will be expected to pay 1.8%. For adults with children the rates will remain the same: 1.8% for people with one child, 1.55% for people with two children, and 1.3% for people with three or more children."

I don't have children and this doesn't seem inherently unfair to me. It's an acknowledgement of the care labor these households are doing.

That said, I'd prefer to see it be progressive by income as well. A couple without children in the bottom income decile shouldn't be paying more than a couple with children in the top income decile.

ravenstineMay 26, 2026, 4:08 PM
Because the elders haven't extracted enough wealth from younger generations? Because economics has nothing to do with people choosing not to have kids? I'm picturing Germany as Sideshow Bob walking right into another rake.
hn_throwaway_99May 26, 2026, 4:13 PM
I'm a childfree adult, and this proposed bill makes perfect sense to me. I see it not as incentivizing people to have kids, but instead as a way to more fairly spread the burden as populations age.

I can easily understand that if everyone went my route (i.e. no kids) that society would collapse by definition, and my later years would be inherently miserable. I'm depending on others that do have kids (and sacrificed a lot in their 20s, 30s and 40s, a sacrifice I was not willing to make) so I can pay for medical and aged care when I'm old. So paying a slight amount more for this support seems highly reasonable to me.

fabianholzerMay 26, 2026, 9:17 PM
> I'm picturing Germany as Sideshow Bob walking right into another rake.

Speaking as a German with children: Completely apt image. Yet I would name several dozen of policies that are more serious "rakes in your face" than this. This is merely squeezing a little bit more out of the working population. Everyone knows that social security in the current state is a Ponzi scheme and what ever is collected is immediately redistributed.

nonninzMay 26, 2026, 4:38 PM
An excellent, apolitical(*) video from Kurzgesagt about the current situation in Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-gYFcVx-8Y

It explains how we got there, the problems we are facing, the problems inherent to the proposed/possible solutions, etc.

(*) as in, they really try hard to stay neutral on the topic until the end, in the clearly marked conclusions and opinion section.

bushwartMay 26, 2026, 4:06 PM
Still a draft bill, nothing final yet.
JyaifMay 26, 2026, 4:18 PM
What are the chances it goes through?
fabianholzerMay 26, 2026, 9:09 PM
This is nothing particularly new. People above a certain age without kids are paying a higher percentage from their income into the social security since 2005 when Gerhard Schröder was chancellor, and that's more than twenty years ago.

What this proposal would change is the concrete percentage. Currently 4.2%, 4.7% if it were enacted.

pesusMay 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
I wonder if we'll eventually see a backlash as population growth continues slowing. In a society composed largely of old people being supported financially (and otherwise) by the younger people, it would be very possible for the younger people to decide they're simply tired of spending their lives subsiding the old people who just put the burden on them instead of fixing the system.
faangguyindiaMay 26, 2026, 4:11 PM
Remember we borrow from future.
josefritzishereMay 26, 2026, 4:43 PM
The alternative is to increase immigration, which is a giant glowing "easy" button that will solve 100% of problems with domestic fecundity. re: birthrates.
halifaxbeardMay 26, 2026, 4:26 PM
Do children that are the product of sexual assault count?
amaiMay 26, 2026, 6:11 PM
Fake kids incoming in three, two, one ...
bpodgurskyMay 26, 2026, 4:07 PM
Every rapidly aging country (most of them) will need to either do something like this, or deal with a total collapse of social services.
azan_May 26, 2026, 4:27 PM
No, the solution is increasing pension age. Funneling money from young to elderly is the opposite of solution.
bpodgurskyMay 26, 2026, 5:24 PM
I mean sure, but that's even less likely to happen.
azan_May 26, 2026, 5:56 PM
I don't think so. I believe that there will be some kind of breaking point and young people will just refuse to provide luxurious space communism for pensioners.
dude250711May 26, 2026, 4:14 PM
What about redistribution of housing and readjustment of older pensions?
enachtryMay 26, 2026, 4:30 PM
hollow-moeMay 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
basically "you WILL have children so ours can have slaves to exploit (and if you don't we'll just exploit you more now)", lol, lmao even
azan_May 26, 2026, 4:25 PM
Ah yes, let’s funnel more money to pensioners!
mc32May 26, 2026, 4:04 PM
Makes sense since they don’t produce future taxpayers. They should also adjust retirement age based on life expectancy -of course people won’t like this but you can’t overcome the math. Separately, I also think airfare should be in part based on weight.
hobofanMay 26, 2026, 4:10 PM
Childless people have a shorter life expectancy by ~2 years. So if we unsocalize the cost and base it on that factor, people with children should be paying more as they are a strain on the system for longer.
skeledrewMay 26, 2026, 8:03 PM
That would be counterproductive, as then there would be less incentive to have children, and the fertility rate is already in the tank as is.
mc32May 26, 2026, 4:12 PM
Fair. They need to calculate the numbers and come out with fair payouts. Naively it would seem individuals (children) pay more in taxes than it takes to cover two years.
jonhohleMay 26, 2026, 4:13 PM
Two years ago I was booked for a flight with my wife and four kids. I would say the average of all 6 of us at the time was about 85lbs. Not only that, but because we have to fit in a vehicle with all of our stuff, we pack light, at most one roll-aboard each.

The plane was overweight so they were choosing reservations to involuntary bump to the next day and of course we were selected. No amount of reason mattered; if they bumped us based on an “average weight”, they’d be no better off than when they started.

wadimMay 26, 2026, 4:19 PM
Should people with disabled children pay even more, since they not only fail to produce future taxpayers, but are also a huge burden on the social system? What if your children die before even paying a single cent into the system? People with jobs/hobbies with a high risk of being taken out of the workforce? People with genetic diseases? Or just go straight to the root of the issue: anyone above 60, who can't even dress themselves, we get rid of.

We should really gamify the system as much as possible to make it fun for everyone involved.

mc32May 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
There’s a difference between childless by choice and childlessness because of natural infertility, etc. presumably the parents didn’t choose their children to be burdens and so we’d chalk that up to statistical probability.
wadimMay 26, 2026, 4:34 PM
How do you know they didn't? Some people don't want to screen for birth defects or check for compatibility between themselves. They don't do all preventative measures, don't use gene-editing therapies or do harmful things like drinking and smoking while being pregnant.
jxhcbuMay 26, 2026, 4:17 PM
Someone hasnt heard of Goodharts Law.
strathmeyerMay 26, 2026, 4:18 PM
[dead]
siesteMay 26, 2026, 4:10 PM
This is very cruel towards people who want to have children but can't.
JCTheDenthogMay 26, 2026, 4:13 PM
They can always adopt?
handednessMay 26, 2026, 4:18 PM
The adoption process is incredibly broken.

Prospective adoptive parents need to assume a difficult years-long process with no guarantee of placement, mid to high five-figures expenses or more (prohibitive for the average non-FAANG Americans), assume major undisclosed and significantly heritable mental health disorders, assume undisclosed in-utero substance exposure requiring challenging and costly care, and be aware of revocation periods up to one year in length.

I've seen people exhaust themselves financially after many years of trying only to be told by agencies they were now above the age limit. I've seen people learn later of a family history of not just Cluster C or even B disorders, but A. I've seen revocation on the last day of eligibility at the one year mark.

International agencies are notorious for not disclosing previously diagnosed FAS, drug exposure, autism, and other major medical issues to the receiving stateside agency a consistent problem adopting out of Eastern Europe, especially.

Too many good homes who would love to adopt are being put off of the process. We need major adoption reform so eligible parents have a relatively smooth process they can trust.

JCTheDenthogMay 26, 2026, 4:24 PM
In what way? Here in the US it takes too long and costs too much, but there are lots of charities that assist with this. Otherwise it's fairly straightforward. I say this as someone dealing with fertility issues and in the process of pursuing adoption myself.
handednessMay 26, 2026, 4:38 PM
I just filled out the comment. And yes, just taking too long and costing to much is already a major hurdle that leaves children in another broken pipeline for far too long awaiting placement when they could be bonding with their adoptive parents.

For all my horror stories I've also seen it work out wonderfully for people, and wish you the best. In my book it's one of the noblest things anyone can do.

skeledrewMay 26, 2026, 8:29 PM
Fix the process in light of the other necessary changes.
dheeraMay 26, 2026, 4:17 PM
Not to mention, cruel towards people who are not financially ready for children and make a conscious choice to not have children without the resources for it, but get financially penalized for it.
b0rtb0rtMay 27, 2026, 6:26 AM
waiting to be “financially ready for children” before having them is objectively a poor decision
mchusmaMay 26, 2026, 4:23 PM
The poor have dramatically more children than the rich on average, you don't need to be rich to have kids. Kids don't need to have rich parents to have a good live/upbringing.
recursePMay 26, 2026, 4:37 PM
This is very unfair for people that cannot have children. On one side we have the people that can't for biology reasons, on the other those who don't have the economic stability to support a functional family. Also, adopting costs can be very high so it is not an option for many. I won't definitely be voting political parties promoting these measures. There must be other ways.
bwestergardMay 26, 2026, 5:21 PM
Thanks for drawing attention to cases of involuntary childlessness.

I'm not sure I agree that it is unfair, I'd need to give it more thought. My initial reaction is that there are all sorts of burdens that we want to incentivize people to take on that not everyone can take on, through no fault of their own. For example, we want people to serve in the military, and we provide all sorts of benefits to people who do, but some people are unable to join the military through no fault of their own (e.g. they are blind).