However, I think HTMX is a beauty. Fast, simple, and doesnt come with all the bloat and BS a JS heavy / JS first deployment comes with. I can quikckly build fast and responsive sites that cost visitors very little to use/interact with.
websites have less compatability issues now, load extremely fast (google web speed score from 60-80 to flat 100), and have fewer points of failure. Debugging is a breeze. Websites are no less pretty or useful for it. In fact, they look better now because time otherwise wasted on Js BS is now free to use to tinker with / improve aesthetic, or add new features.
I'm in love with HTMX. It feels like what the web should have always been. There's absolutly zero reason a random website, without my knowledge or consent, should be running extremely heavy compute and analytics on my own device. That should never have been possible/permissible in the first place.
Yes, it's smaller than some other frameworks, but let's stop with "doesn't require JS" nd other bullshit
Likewise. 3 or 4 years ago, I ripped out two-thirds of all the JS in my B2B SaaS by using htmx with server-side templating. So much simpler.
The ethos of allowing a return to a simpler way of building a web app resonates with me.
Could you please expand on this point. As a “greybeard” web dev from the 2000’s era, I’d like to understand if your “unlocking” is my “that’s how it originally worked, get of my lawn”?
It's bringing us back to that sort of web development but with modern tools and technology.
For the server side, we can use modern languages with better templating for html.
For the client, with htmx, you can do a lot of javascript such as ajax calls (load, trigger, etc) without writing javascript. With htmx you specify what you want to do inside html attributes.
So my actual javascript code ends up minimal.
I have been doing website dev since 2008. I've worked with PHP, C# (WebForms, MVC), a bit of python... not to mention maintaining an old website in Classic ASP.
2008-2010 I used C# WebForms. I didn't like it, but we still kept it simple, returning data from server side to html.
2010 I started to enjoy jQuery and saw potential returning data. Opened the door to provide more options for webdev.
Around 2014, I've started disagreeing with "modern website development" learning knockoutjs, requirejs, to eventually angularjs, npm's, etc. Sure, I learned and pushed forward but websites seemed to become more a chore and bloat overtime. Personally, I've not really invested in React.
I was starting to go round full circle to the 'old ways' just with modern tech. To me, htmx just makes webdev even more smoother.
It made me think about the Javascript present on my blog. The site works fine without JS (syntax high-lighting is pre-baked server-side).
There is some optional JS enhancement:
- MathJax is used for turning LaTeX expressions into nice graphics on the client-side. A search reveals this could be done on the server-side, but I'd need to deal with the node.js ecosystem.
- PJAX is enabled [1]. This is completely optional, but it noticeably made page navigation faster (feel instant), especially when navigating between pages already visited (forwards/backwards).
[1]: The library is at https://www.aktau.be/js/pjax-standalone.js. It is invoked at the end of <body>:
pjax.connect({
"container": "content",
"complete": function() { MathJax.typesetPromise(); }, // Reload mathjax after a pjax load.
"autoAnalytics": false
});This was my trick for cutting back to two cups of coffee a day.
The state machines use JSONata for the sweet, sweet power vs JSONPath. Generally I have a Parallel state that splits the different parts of the page and Map states for data driven repetition (usually some data pulled from DDB). I have a simple JSONata method for replacing placeholder values (aka data binding). Zero Lambda at the cost of come copy paste.
I’m not unhappy with it despite the warts.
1.25 liters is way beyond even my own addiction to lightweight liquid stimulants.
It seems to be pretty niche, but I've only ever heard good things about it.
The thing that is frustrating me about HTMX so far is: How do I build typesafe templates on the server? I'm trying out Aksama and it seems ok, is there something similar for JS?
Also the SPA abstraction of "your website is just a client that connects to a an API" is nice.
Have a default you can import? Absolutely, that makes sense
But styling by default they you have to make complicated overrides for? That’s the part that gets me
with that im very enjoying the challenge of scaling ssr stuff like this. i am very tempted to throw months of my life away building out a full fledged framework that means no npm / node toolchains, an easier to customize component model thats more performant and doesn't feel like... abstractions of abstractions, compile time tree shakedowns. for all of it. streamlit showed me the beauty of a declarative api that kinda went and did the rest but it missed a ton of marks with its top to bottom runs and it's just awkward.. a little too opinionated, terrible performance, perhaps the dumbest state management ive ever seen in my life... nicegui improved on that, but python just doesn't fit the bill for what i want to do. something that's go and its fully reactive and gives you full control. i genuinely think the hardest part of doing this is designing a framework api that is approachable and easily-rememberable. golang actually makes this hard, python wins with kwargs and stuff. i also suppose i could just start using wasm
i think where this might all be headed.. it's a touchy subject if im being honest. our guy at work is an amazing person super candid and honest. he says it kinda hurts seeing the front end stack he's been in pretty much his entire career start to lose developer interest. we've talked in depth about how the entire history of things like react came to be out of necessity, a product of its time with all the historic constraints that used to exist.. it led to educational curriculums, bootcamps and full blown careers.. but it's really hard to get behind what feels like an overly complex workaround that spans well over a decade at this point. people have invested a lot in their frontend-frameworks and toolchains and workflows and other pieces of knowledge and understandably are ready to defend it the entire existence of "make the client browser do a lot of work work" model. but hey, I've used both heavily and for what it's worth I think server-side and a general programming language are really the path forward here and it feels like something that corrects one of computing histories biggest weird sidequests. i genuinely think everyone will have a deeper and better understanding of computing in general approaching from this angle, and i think ssr is a very valuable path to explore that can really open the doors to understanding what makes good software as you're forced to contend with the most important design pattern: if you're going to make the server do most of the work, what is needed to do it well & scale to many clients. it naturally leads you into some really exciting possibilities. i personally love where this is headed because it completely nerfs the need for such abominations such as graphql & it's supporting infra. i can just rawdog sql, the most goated query language of all time.
highly performant data grids imo are the gold standard of components. i'm okay with a blend of client and server side work to make this a reality, aggrid is a good example of a very sick front end lib that does this. but i look forward to seeing if anyone's going to do something new here that is performant as hell and served up from the backend, some kind of tanstack demonchild or satanic wasm data grid 9000
One of the most delightful little swag stunts I've ever seen, and emblematic of the HTMX crew just how much they care about craft and delight in everything they do.
This whole concept died because of styling and that era of everyone having their pixel perfect psd turned into a html table or a flash applet and you couldn't reconcile both, but sometime out there you can still find an old IntraWeb business app and you realize they had the components, events and everything figured out long before it became cool again.
I always wish for some RAD tool to show up for modern web stack again, but I guess it moves too fast to be worth it, and nowadays front and backend are properly separated disciplines.
Especially nowadays where AI changes how you interact with ugly languages like php, but benefit from their deep ecosystems, speed and super fast "build" times.
In fact, despite me being unable to look at php syntax much without vomiting, and finding languages without proper static types nauseating..I'm just more productive in those than in spa slop land.
The web and browser technologies has also moved a lot. The "client side rendering so users don't see a refresh and have an app like experience" is basically a 2010 thing.
- OpenAPI API spec and using https://github.com/oapi-codegen/oapi-codegen/ to generate the types, server interface, and client library
- Standard library http package for the API server implementation
- Standard library template/html package for generating the dynamic parts of the webpage content
- Static web content is embedded within the Go binary (https://pkg.go.dev/embed) and served through server routes
- api served from /api route, htmx webpage served from /
- no ORM, mostly using standard library database/sql package for DB transactions, maybe reaching for a query builder library for more complex queries like complex search functionality
- Local S3 compatible object store for dynamic binary data like user-uploaded images and video. Local filesystem can be fine for small scale stuff.
For my home server I have authn/authz happening at the OS/infra layer, but if you need multitenancy you can pretty easily integrate an OAuth/OpenID authn/authz middleware for login with Google or whatever.
https://github.com/gsxhq/gsxui
https://github.com/jackielii/structpages is what I might call a framework that GSX sits nicely in.
Also one ai haven't tried: Templ.
Why not just use html without HTMX you ask? With HTMX I don't have to reload the entire page to navigate, which is especially helpful for making the app responsive even on low bandwidth connections like a bad cell signal.
That's great but I believe it's still over-engineered. Unless it's a web site that can tolerate no downtime at all during schema updates, SQLite in WAL2 mode is more than enough. Moreover, in Postgres version upgrades can't be done without significant downtime (or setting up replication and performing a complex dance), so even that isn't so cut and dry.
</ ... >
Postgres version upgrades are basically painless, at my workplace our upgrades complete in so little time our users don't notice, and we have more data than probably 99.9999% of companies out there (mature company in aerospace industry).
Version upgrades for SQLite are basically a no-op though, that's kinda one of the reasons why it's so great to run in production (and deployment a maintenance being mostly a no-op as well, apart from setting up backups I guess).
I don't actually suggest that everyone should run their production on SQLite, but it's genuinely worth considering especially for small-ish projects.
The difference is only in the deployment/maintenance.
And considering the context he stated, zero downtime really doesn't seem like something he's worrying about.
I do think that people really underestimate how quickly a system starts being "please, no downtime" (or its weaker cousin, "please, don't make your ops people do rollouts at 1AM").
Like obviously it's not the end of the world but the default assumption of "the system is up" makes a loooooot of things downstream of that easier.
Having to do operational bug triage on systems that routinely have blips in availability is unfun.
I personally find Postgres WAY easier than SQLite simply because of the deployment story. I do a lot of hotfixes and dangerous stuff on personal projects, and having two databases complicates that tremendously. I like being able to run hot code on prod.
For the record, this is not the same reason I like postgres for actual production code
Just recently I looked at hosting an old school forum. I don't want to load all the PHP and MySQL baggage on my server or even run it in docker, so I looked for Python solutions. Found PunkwebBB. Was happy for a short time with it, until I tested it more in depth with no scripts. Unfortunately, while it has some good fallbacks in some places, it doesn't have them everywhere and some buttons just don't do anything without JS. It also uses Htmx. Completely unnecessary JS, considering the function of the buttons.
I considered forking it. But the amount of work to remove the needless JS, and repair it ...
So now I am building my own forum completely without JS, and with Python Django doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Later this year I will be releasing Misago 0.40, which is a near complete rewrite from React.js to HTMX, with rest of features to follow in 2027. And yes, noscripy support is part of it.
https://misago-project.org/t/removing-reactjs-from-the-codeb...
It's awesome, I'm not criticizing Htmx at all to be clear, I am criticizing our seemingly inability to advance the core web technology of HTML in browsers to include this kind of tech natively.
If somebody from the WhatWG, e.g. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Opera, and Mozilla, etc. wants to embrace and support the creators of Htmx and wrap this into the browser natively, I will proudly retract my comment.
[1] https://htmx.org/essays/future/#writing-research-and-standar...
Or at least they were, until I started using cache components the other week, and I'd not noticed they'd regressed. That's frustrating. Give me a few minutes...
In practice I think it's very easy to make your htmx application JS-requiring.
Turbo comes from a progressive-enhancement philosophy: start with proper HTML and add richer behaviour on top. HTMX is a JavaScript library in much the same sense that React is. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it makes this anti-pattern easier to fall into.
Honestly, “the site should work without JavaScript” is no longer the strongest argument. Server-rendered, semantic HTML matters more for accessibility, SEO, and increasingly for LLMs and other automated tools.
Of course, you can write excellent HTML with HTMX. It just requires more discipline—or enough experience to recognize when you are quietly building a JavaScript application in HTML attributes.
TIL. Thanks! Now all the Grug references in the shop make sense, as well as the wisdom and overall vibe of the htmx project :)
[0] https://www.infoworld.com/article/2336201/complexity-bad-an-...
Even React-aholics have to tip their hats to a Game Boy release.
it is a real, honest-to-goodness mario-bros inspired GameBoy game with four levels over three biomes ending in a slop factory where you battle final boss warren buffering (an online character I beef with, we are friends)
if you beat him it unlocks the source code for htmx 4.0
game was written by Stephen Mitchell (aka scum) by hand, using GBStudio w/heavy customizations, hoping to get an essay by him up soon talking about the creation of the game
carts were produced w/the expertise of Jarason Banes who also did the cover design. Cover art is by Ash (https://www.fiverr.com/ae1996/) who also did the soft-cover art for https://hypermedia.systems
Hope you find it enjoyable if you get a copy and at least find it funny if you don't :)
Got really good at using it by the end of the project. You can listen to the trailer music here. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/live/9ubSJGyB21Q?si=sz-8pxPs6zxVYMfY...
Love HTMX, can't wait for my https://brickboy.xyz/ to arrive so I can get to work!
There's a source code reader at the end of the game, tbd if there are transfer abilities, I haven't beat it yet
https://modretro.com/products/chromatic-tetris-bundle
you can find cheaper ones on amazon/temu too
Someone commented in the past few days that the most impressive demo they saw in a conference was LibreOffice running on Fil-C, and I agreed.
However, this took the #1 spot from it (leaving that previous demo in #2) in my opinion. Very impressive, and nostalgic too.
Thanks for pointing it out, lol
Not trying to make money on it, it’s for the lols
I find htmx ideal for things that should be static to begin with, and for things that are dynamic, I fail to see how it can handle synchronisation?
I believe Github is using similar technology and their notifications indicators and counter are almost always broken and out of sync.
I used HTMX in a few projects, and the library worked well enough for what I needed, but I found it to be a bit too limiting compared to accomplishing the same task in Vanilla JS (my go-to).
I think the design of HTMX acts as a complexity limiter by encouraging less JS. One can make the argument that manually writing JS instead of HTMX would be easier and more maintainable. However, I've found that JS code often trends towards becoming increasingly complex over time.
Also, I'm glad to see that htmx can be installed without npm. I think the ability to install npm packages can incentivize too many dependencies.
well done to the htmx team.
- It's way too long and not catchy. What it refers to is a convoluted long thing too.
- This is the killer: it's not so mainstream that everybody knows it. People kind of took "REST" and left the rest. Even REST isn't usually real REST in practice. It just means json api nowadays.
...I may have done this.
If its's really the case, that would be sad for a game that is about fighting slop.
Your client does not have permission to get URL /en-cad/products/htmx-4-the-game from this server.
But more importantly (as this "Game Boy" option reveals), the head honcho is really responsive with the items in the store. I had purchased a coffee mug a few years back and complained on Twitter that they need to sell larger mugs instead of only offering little tiny baby mugs that only hold ~8 ounces of liquid. The next day, he added giant 48-ounce monsters to the store and I've been drinking out of that mug every day since.