This is also comparable to self-driving car: Waymo's system has achieve the level of "less error than human on average" long time ago, but they are still only doing slow expansion. Why? Because when AI is involved, human naturally expect them to be almost 100% correct, not just barely better than human, otherwise why bother use AI (and all the troubles to legalize for AI) in the first place? So in this case, I guess the police just blindly trust the AI being 99.99% correct.
It’s a camera system, and data can be queried by police. They have to search for something. So the cops searched for a vehicle matching the description in the general area, seemed to take the first one, and called it a day.
That’s not an AI-uncanny-valley. That’s the equivalent of (pre-flock/cameras) looking at vehicle registration list and assuming the one at the top of the list must be it.
The automation-trust is a legitimate concern but it’s not applicable here.
Flock does have AI components (this one seems LLM based). Basically every ANPR system will also use some level of AI.
Also, on "reality would like a word". Why not just speak normally instead of using what seems like a high-school grade comeback?
The main Flock related issue here is that officers treat results that come out of the systems as gospel. The same thing has happened with face recognition systems. There is also the broader issue of access controls to Flock, 5A, and whether places should be building up a technology so powerful (surveillance infrastructure can easily be used for evil).
And the issue is absolutely not just cops taking what they say as gospel; that’s a teeny tiny itty bitty fraction of the issue, which is in itself reductive. This is a massively multifaceted issue and to state otherwise means you don’t understand the scope.
Perhaps you should actually read TFA. Here’s another one. https://cybernews.com/privacy/flock-ai-os-investigate/
Yes, but it is still your fault. “I am dumb and I was deceived” is no valid defense, least of all for a police officer.
Gross lack of due diligence: it has full fault.
Untrained officials: graver systemic fault.
> company, are totally innocent
How clear is the uncertainty of the output?
It is not even clear from the article that there were anything wrong with the output. She has a car of that make. And it doesnt appear to be in dispute that she drove nearby.
It simply is the case that “being nearby” in itself is not enough evidence that you were involved in a crash. Especially when the colour doesn’t match and the vehicle is not damaged.
For the sake of argument, let’s suppose that Flock is 100% evil/guilty/blameworthy in this case. Even in that case, two things are still true:
A) Flock has no authority to arrest anyone B) Flock has no authority over the police
The buck has to stop somewhere. It’s counterproductive to focus on what Flock did, compared to what the police did. And I say that as someone who is not a fan of Flock.
Police approving AI PRs without reading them: This is the way the world works now. Get with the times.
Perhaps more facts will come out, but if we take the article at face value, the cops are at this woman's house, looking at her car and can see with their own eyes that the car right in front of them has obviously not been in an accident. All that is required is for these cops to rub two brain cells together and they will reach the conclusion that Flock misread a license plate.
It's also worth emphasizing that this wasn't for a parking ticket. The extremely low level of care with which these public servants are conducting a manslaughter investigation is somewhat alarming.
Closer analogy: The dumbest student in a class tells you 2 + 2 = 5 and you believe them.
Even more apt analogy: You're the dumbest student in the class, the second-dumbest student tells you 2 + 2 = 5, but you lack the critical thinking skills necessary to know whether that student is smart or not so you just believe them.
It’s more like normal people don’t know that 97.8% accurate isn’t 100% - despite how good of a score that would be on a test.
Law enforcement is predominantly made up of normal people.
You might see where this is going.
The number one demograph for domestic violence and abuse are cops, they are not just a randomly selected group of people that chanced into law enforcement as a career.
Be sure you don’t have the causation backwards - or that it doesn’t flow strongly both ways!
It attracts certain people - and being around that crowd and power pushes some number of people over the line that were near it.
See also: stimulant use, abuse, in the construction industry.
A lot of people coming to this story seem to have the idea that it's unthinkable for someone to spend 13 days in jail when they have clear evidence they're innocent, so there must be some novel explanation for how this could happen. But as any criminal defense lawyer will tell you it's very thinkable. She was ordered to report to jail on a Friday afternoon, the standard stratagem cops use to ensure people they don't like spend at least a weekend behind bars. She was denied bail, even though she made no move to flee in the months where she knew the police thought she did it, because the courts in many places view mandatory pretrial detention as a punishment for presumptively guilty people.
And if your country happens to have a police force that is historically bad at its job, giving them that power seems like a really stupid idea.
Certain technology just has too much potential to be misused / people repeatedly prove they can't use it properly. It also comes with risks of making authoritarian takeover easier.
However, here, it seems they used Flock a bit like a regular ANPR. The actions they took independent of Flock show there are better stories to use to criticise this technology.
Yes, the system is broken even before we get to Flock (or whatever tech) but Flock makes it worse. If a bad tool is badly used to cause harm, it’s fair to criticise its existence. You can’t fix police abuse with a snap of the finger, so you need to start but taking away the tools which facilitate it.
If it were your ass which had been thrown in solitary, would you be pleading with your lawyer to “go easy on Flock. Sure, they allowed a major disruption and trauma into my life, but they’re just a tool”?
If a kid has shown themselves to be repeatedly irresponsible, when they ask for a circular saw you don't just give it to them and turn away. You make them explain what it is for and ensure they know how to safely use it. And if they start swinging it around wildly in opposition to what you said, you take it away, they are obviously incapable of using it right.
If someone released a hammer that when held a certain way would cause your hand to explode and it kept happening over and over, the solution wouldn’t be just to tell people to hold it better, it would also be to recall the tool and fix it so the issue were less likely or impossible to occur. And if it can’t be done, then maybe the hammer shouldn’t be released again.
This “it’s just a tool, the proper solution is to rework civilisation” defence is frankly as tired as it is ignorant. The way you fix the system as a whole is via a lot of small fixes.
I don't it's about an innocent skill issue like you imply (holding a hammer the wrong way). It's an ethical issue of bad actors in the government, together with an accountability issue of the system preventing holding those bad actors to account.
AI cameras are just one tool; there are other tools, too. Where do you draw the line for which tools deserve the removal for your kind of reason? Perhaps degun the police departments because guns also get abused? How do you decide in a principled way that AI cameras are somehow special compared to other tools?
It doesn’t have to, but historically we can observe that the longer something has been entrenched as the norm, the harder it is to change (authoritarians regimes take advantage of this too, by making it appear some things are older than they are). Which is why it’s doubly important to resist when something new with bad consequences is introduced.
> I don't it's about an innocent skill issue like you imply
There was no “skill issue” implication. If anything, the opposite is the point.
> AI cameras are just one tool; there are other tools, too.
This is just whataboutism. Yes, there are several tools which are problematic. The submission is about this one, which is why we’re discussing it. We can’t discuss everything that needs to change in every conversation. That’s called focus.
The people who say there are problems with the human police officers are perceived as excusing Flock.
Who is responsible for the area inside a square, the width or the height? It is not an additive relationship.
If a random person walks into a police station and accuses a random stranger of murder, and the police put that stranger in jail based on that alone, the main problem is not the accuser.
A scientist who uses an LLM to write a paper remains responsible for its contents. And authorities that outsource police work remain responsible for what comes from that.
This is the good old police incompetence that you come across once in a while and shake your head.
Where detectives lock on one angle of a case and completely refuse to entertain any other possible explanations
I have never released a single product that has seen people die through common user misuse.
The standards for solutions shouldn't get _lower_ as the stakes get _higher_.
If a private company can puts hundreds of tons of payload into orbit without ever causing someone to accidentally be imprisoned a company that sells cameras on a stick shouldn't either.
But seriously, privacy must not become a sided issue. Attacks on privacy are bipartisan, the defense of it would be weakened if it was not bipartisan. Civil liberties protected by the constitution should not be controversial.
Flock didn't fail to inspect the car for damage and not find any, flock didn't take 13 days to conduct a cursory review of evidence, flock didn't fail to request cell tower triangulation data and rule out her being in the location of the accident...
I get that people feel their privacy's invaded by being filmed, but this story doesn't appear to have any more to do with Flock than what the officers had for breakfast or the brand of air freshener she had in her car at the time.
With dumb camera footage, the cops looks at the plates, visual indicators, etc. That does not make them more competent or less prone to abuse. But here, Flock's software literally told them this woman was the one they were looking for, despite no evidence supporting this.
This is 100% both on the police and on Flock. Some technologies don't deserve to exist. Facial recognition and ALPR is one of those, because the error rates are too high and the stakes are too high.
Nor does Flock - Flock merely provides a photo and timestamp, which should have been scrutised like any other evidence.
The Flock data showed:
- Car of same make/model nearby at similar time to the accident
- Possible colour match (eyewitnesses gave varying reports on the colour of the perpetrating vehicle). But a match could have been ruled out in minutes had police inspected paint transfer onto the struck vehicle
- A number plate non-match (first three characters were reported to 911 and did not match)
- That's all!
So police didn't do their job (scutinise the evidence), and possibly worse, they may have fabricated evidence (since police claimed Isaacs' vehicle was damaged, but it was in factory-new condition) - which may explain why they're shifting blame to Flock!
A computer software is supposed to deliver reliable, predictable, reproducible results. When it does not every now and then, it's a bug. When your entire system is built in "recognition" and "confidence" and leads to wrongful arrests, it's not a bug. You are just not making computer science. You are making a power abuse machine.
Could they have, you know, double checked it? Yes, obviously. But they didn't.
I agree that this story is more about the incredible incompetence of the police involved than flock attempting to record everyone and everything, but flock giving the police an excuse to stop looking and arrest an innocent is by no means irrelevant.
- Does anything connect this vehicle to the accident?
- Did it look damaged; as though it had been in a crash?
- Did it look like it was fleeing or driving erratically?
- Was there anything suspicious about the vehicle or the driver?
Police would have deemed the photo irrelevant and moved on. But that didn't happen in this case.
Their failure to do so doesn't have to do with source of the image (Flock, shop CCTV, dashcam), but with their inexplicable lack of rigour.
At no point does a cop have to look at the photo(s), the timestamps, confirm the plate, see if the person who owns the car is driving it, or see the dozens of other cars in that area at the time that should also be of potential interest. They enter the query and get a single answer so obviously accept it as likely perpetrator.
Can you give an account of the lack of rigor, or is it some kind of holy mystery?
Their conclusion (after 5 minutes) would have been (obviously) that there’s not so much as a strand of chewing gum connecting the car to the accident, or making it stand out from dozens of others, and they’d promptly get back to searching for the car that actually was involved.
But the question is why it didn't happen. Because that is not what happened.
The answer is that it's flock, and that's the point you're "inexplicably" ignoring.
The accusation that some machine made any decision here goes beyond the reporting in the article. It seems concocted to raise AI alarm. All we have is that it supplied accurate data that police then abused. That isn't in the vicinity of "outsource[d] basic critical thinking to machines".
I want such general government surveillance banned, but the machines in this story had no more volition than a breathalyzer.
As far as I know, it lets law enforcement query for things against the data. Can be specific (like a license plate) or more general (like a dark colored mid-sized SUV around <location> at <time>).
To get where this story is at, cops here must have done the latter, and taken the first name off the top of the pile and patted themselves on the back, and then waited 7 months, and went and arrested her. Unless there’s an explanation for a 7 month delay, it seems designed to allow defensive evidence to spoil.
There isn’t an uncanny-valley of automation here. There is just lazy, grossly-incompetent, bad-faith, and malicious cops/investigators.
Please tell the police that, then, under penalty of being blacklisted if they ever violate it. They're the ones treating it as such.
But they didn't question the quality of the evidence. And there is a reason for that.
Guns can be used for all sorts of things. A handgun in a house is likely to be used for murder/suicide.
On an article about people who did no research to actually prove out their assumptions, this is perhaps the most ironic comment to be chastising them.
The statistic you are reaching for but misunderstanding, is that they are more likely to be used in a suicide or murder than in home defense against an intruder.
A personally-owned handgun is statistically most likely to simply never be used, or only used at a range. The number of personally-owned firearms that are ever involved in a murder or suicide is literally a fraction of a percentage.
But go off!
The total number is relatively small, but so are deaths from measles. Should we not decrease them where we can?
Modern AI was and is a mistake. It's only going to get worst before it gets better.
Unfortunately, our current government in the US is hard AI-pilled (oh, sorry, "super-intelligence-pilled"). They use it every day to present propaganda to the public via social media.
Ban AI use in all branches of government, and in policing. At least until there are ethical standards put in place that are very heavily punished when violated.
Also, state and federal level politicians should be prohibited from using social media in anything other than a purely personal basis without mention of political office or without speaking on the topic of politics. Want to post cool pictures of your family? Go for it. Speaking to your constituency? Must be strongly vetted for ethical violations, and punishable by immediate removal from office and a 10-year blacklist.
I expect the solution they will settle on is to form a department for interacting with technology like this, who understand its outputs are not edicts.
you can't really expect any meaningful police reforms (such as liability and insurance) because anyone who is in any position to enact them is perfectly fine with dumb muscle that holds a monopoly on violence and is deferential to them. in fact the public disliking the police is an ideal outcome for those decision makers as it gives them more leverage over the police.
Partial matches, correct matches but no investigation into things like paint transfer, it's happened way too many times (hint: one is too many times for things that can incarcerate people).
It's like they're speedrunning unworthiness to hold the monopoly on violence. This is how you get riots and revolutions. Sadly, today's Western world is complicit and complacent. Nobody who is pro-surveillance state will change their mind until it affects them or someone close to them.
Was she just given an extremely high bond she couldn’t afford? Not that that’s much better than no bond at all, but I’d really like to understand the details here.
(Source: around 13:00 in this interview with her lawyer, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F_0iIaXGqA)
Cue 20 minute 2020 short film Please Hold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Hold_(2020_film)
When the police come and want to arrest you for triple manslaughter you just don’t open the door, and they shrug and you can let a third party “negotiate” with them for you?
US cops can and do regularly get fet cleared for abuses because "I didn't know I wasn't suppose to violate their rights!" Meanwhile for civilians "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law."
She (correctly) never spoke to the police, other than an initial denial when they seized her car, and was never Mirandized or interrogated. By the time they knocked on her door (reportedly at 3AM), her car had already been seized since she lived in an apartment complex with an outdoor parking lot. But she wasn’t arrested until months later.
Well the next step obviously is to get in touch with the lodge these police officers belong to, talk to the grandmaster and convince him to organize a conciliation night with you as a guest. When you leave, whisper in the ear of the officer in charge of your case "I'm hungry, and I only use pressure cookers. If you behave I'll invite you to the diner".
So, when you get arrested, you are required to be arraigned by a judge, and that judge has to find probable cause for arrest. That requires the prosecution to present evidence to the judge that a crime was committed and you probably did it. It’s a very low standard of proof, but it does have to happen. And then you are required to get bail, outside of very extreme cases. It depends on the jurisdiction, but all of that has to happen relatively quickly after arrest, like 24-72 hours. If she didn’t get bail until 13 days after the arrest, that’s a pretty cut and dry civil rights violation. If they didn’t get a probable cause determination in that time period, that’s a civil rights violation (unless they got an arrest warrant prior, which they might have in this case).
If she did get bail within a couple days, but it was just so much she couldn’t afford it, then it gets murkier. Because at that point thats not the police or the prosecutor, that’s the judge. Similarly, if the prosecutor presented the evidence they had to a judge for a probable cause determination (or the arrest warrant) and the judge granted it, that’s on the judge. You would have to show the prosecutor and/or police lied or presented inaccurate information in court. If not… at that point you have two independent branches of government screwing up.
Fucking Florida
When is someone gonna spin up a predictive AI that attempts to tell if someone is going to commit a crime, and sells that to PDs, just so we can really dive headfirst into the Minority Report.
The problem is the police-camera system, of which the camera is an instrumental component
This is literally the first sentence of the article.
You can dislike public surveillance, but statements like "Flock camera data put this woman in jail for 13 days" blatantly ignores the the fact that Flock didn't put anyone in jail, a bunch of cops who very clearly knew that it wasn't her.
> The Flock camera, meanwhile, had recorded Isaacs’ car and its license plate several miles away from the site of the accident, sometime around the time of the incident.
Blaming a tool, when the cops in question are clearly willing to grasp to whatever piece of "evidence" makes their job "easier" is a giant cop-out and excuse for the people who are abusing it.
Any piece of evidence requires some form of critical examination; that is what law enforcement's job is. If you're just going to go with the first theory/piece-of-evidence they find.... they're not doing their job (and violating peoples constitutional rights through sheer laziness).
"Flock is bad" metonymizes the situation, but doesn't let anyone off the hook.
This situation the equivalent of an eye-witness saying "Ya, I think it might have been this person I know, Tom!" and a cop/prosecutor taking that at face value and arresting Tom (and the system that allowed that to happen).
The people who make decisions and take action so (grossly) negligently need to be held accountable and face consequences. Blaming the tool (whatever tool it is) is giving the people who have the actual responsibility an escape hatch to avoid accountability.
All public defenders and most prosecutors are happy to admit anonymously that the justice system is 90% gears grinding people. They ALL know an innocent person that pled guilty to end the grinding. Judges too. You can find plenty of court videos on YouTube of people pleading guilty while saying they didn’t do it but need to get on with their life. The judge will explain to them that they can’t accept a guilty plea from someone who claims innocence, and the defendant then folds. Everyone in the room knows that there is more to the story, but no one is willing to do the work.
If punishing bad actors alone was enough we wouldn't have a ton of 4th amendment case law.
There is no real mechanism for holding them accountable and the consequences of these tools include death (it only takes one perceived wrong move for officers thinking they've bagged a felon to ventilate you. Hell not even that, see that officer who mag dumped his own car after he mistook an acorn for a gunshot.) This lady is quite lucky that it was only 13 days, if she had a career that's probably hosed but it might not be totally life ruining if she has a strong support system.
Why? She hasn't committed a crime so why should her career be damaged?
Corrupt, arrogant, bigoted, or with a superiority complex? Way more than half.
When it is made pretty clear that as a cop you won't face consequences for your malicious and/or incompetent actions, you're going to select for people who find that very appealing. Similarly, the people who don't like that kind of system might leave, allowing for a reinforcement the malicious and/or incompetent behavior.
Even if the system is only 5% bad, that's too damn much.
I mean, have you seen what ICE is doing these days? And how many local agencies are happily deputizing their officers to do that same work?
No one is letting cops off the hook.
The headline is what 99% of people read, and remember.
I pointed out that this thread is a discussion about the content of the article, and I prefer to discuss content in a discussion about content. I would also point out that the argument about the content of the headline is just a repeat of the argument I was rebutting. It added absolutely nothing to the discussion.
People with any knowledge of publishing know that the headline writer and the article writer are two different people with two different goals. It doesn’t make sense to use a headline written for one purpose by one author to critique the content of an article by a different author.
As to the assertion that a headline is “what people remember”, that has never been my experience. Plenty of people have asked me if I have read the piece in x publication about y topic. No one has ever asked me if I read the article headlined z. The headline is so inconsequential that many reputable publications will use multiple headlines for the same article depending on when and where it is seen.
If you weren’t aware of this, apologies for being so direct. Now you know. Stop remembering only the headlines. The article is the content, not the headline.
There will always be cops willing to misuse whatever they have access to.
Part of it is holding cops accountable in these situations. Part of it is limiting or stopping the use of these systems so cops don't have as many opportunities to abuse them.
Yeah. After all, the police are known for never arresting people based solely on very tenuous and easily disproved evidence. This damn flock surveillance data!
> Everybody knows police will abuse this kind of surveillance technology
Only here that is literally not the case. There was a real crime and the surveillance technology provided the relevant evidence.
Critical examination is the judiciary's job, not the police's. Jordan v. City of New London established that police departments can and do deny employment to prospective officers who possess excessive cognitive ability.